I posted this Associated Press picture along with the following header and sent it off to most people I correspond through email:
WE OWE THEM EVERYTHING AND YET OUR GOVERNMENT, US, WE THE PEOPLE, GIVE SO LITTLE BACK TO THEM IN RETURN. BRING THEM BACK HOME TO LIVE THE LIVES THEY SO DESERVE. THEY SUFFER AND DIE FOR BLOODY OIL MONEY!
I received many positive responses but one came from an old friend and he totally disagreed with my point of view and we went at it. Here’s some excepts that are printable and suitable for public publishing from this debate. Read them and please comment as to what you think on the issue.
Mr. G says- “The way that I see it is this….They enlist. They get a bonus of $20,000 for 30 months…$30,000 for 36 months & $40,000 for 48 months Plus an extra $20,000 if they join the National Guard after that time period. More than one family member in the service pays off the family house, in addition to a full tuition reimbursement for any college courses. They are in it for the money only, unless, of course, they are foolish enough to believe that they are also protecting our freedom by being in Iraq or Afghanistan. If they get injured or lose their life in the process then that’s the price to pay for their foolishness. Hero’s? Bullshit.” (My font bolding)
…and another excerpt……… “You like many others seem to miss the real point. Defense of our country with recruits is one matter that is timeless. It should be.
There will never be enough of die-hard enlistees to fill the ranks that are needed in those perilous times. There will always be so called Heroes to defend the motherland. Most of today’s children of American adults NEED a kick in the ass. Most of them have been pampered so much that they have never even been in a car with the window rolled down… Candy-Ass pampered kids in this “new age” way of raising them. If this country was ever invaded we would not have many people, untrained, to defend it.
When I was drafted for the Viet Nam “Conflict” I went against my will, but you know what, growing up on the streets of South Philadelphia, without much discipline & being drafted right out of high school & THEN going straight into Basic Training at Fort Bragg 100th Airborne Division & Special Forces along with AFRTS Broadcasting did me a world of good & something that I never knew that I needed. I learned discipline, respect & a strong desire to defend the United States so that others can enjoy the freedoms & liberty’s that we have here like no other place on earth. When I spent my time in Viet Nam I didn’t ask to be there. I was told to be there to protect the South Vietnamese from Communist invasion from the North. Now that’s a really good reason to die for, isn’t it?
I learned to feel that, even though the North Vietnamese or the Russians or the Chinese were not a threat to our country. In Vietnam, politically, it was to defend the rubber plantations that France failed to defend & in Iraq, the oil fields . What the hell is the difference. War IS hell. It always was & will always be.
Loss of limb & life will always be the end result for some & others will always walk away unharmed….
The military kids of today are there for what? Other than the money. Most enlistees come from families that have very little income. They are, in many situations, the breadwinners. With the weapons systems of today there are very little land battles that will take place. Not many Hum-Vees to drive around in & get blown up in. Those enlistees CHOOSE that way of life & danger just as others that choose to be employed in enforcement jobs like Police, FBI, Border Patrol, Drug Enforcement, etc. They all play under the same game rules.” (my font bolding here not his)
One of my replies that is printable- “No, you just don’t get it….a life is a life that is unique and cannot be replaced and has emotional ties to others and apparently you don’t value anybody’s life or their emotional connections and it is the main point of the act of giving one’s life for a reason besides the fucking money. That’s the issue you skirt around with a very cold hard nihilist intransigent view. The money is the money and that’s all you harp on. The next time you need assistance from one of these “well-paid” parasites perhaps if they leave you to die in a car accident instead of helping you out of your car you might get it, but I doubt it.”
….and another
“I don’t care about being right, I care about doing the right thing and if honoring two soldiers in a picture drives you to this type of fierce insanity-(even Oliver North wouldn’t deny that the 9/11 deaths of fireman and police made them heros)-then all the articles in the world will not support your harsh opinion that people in all sorts of uniformed duty (do not) perform heroic acts. By your spin, the Japanese were justified to bomb Pearl because we cut their oil off, so let’s see you stand up in front of a vet’s group this Veteran’s Day and tell them all that none of those who died performing acts to save one another (that day) are heroes. You are using the old cliche’ that one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. One must take a stand at some point.”
So what do you think? Are they in it for the money? Are other uniformed positions in it for the money and therefore do not deserve “heroic” status if they save a life, if they run in a burning building?” Am I so off base that “I just don’t get it?” You tell me by commenting with your opinion.
nick oliva
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July 5, 2008 at 9:33 pm
SuziQ
The fact we have a volunteer armed force says it all-they volunteered! If they do it just for the money, that’s their problem, but I know plenty, like my brother, who joined the Navy and served in ‘Nam on a PT boat, who did it because at the time he couldn’t go to college, no money, not good enough grades. It gave him, like the Viet Nam vet who wrote in, a focus and resolve that made in a success afterward using the training he got in electronics to eventually start his own electronics business, which he still owns and manages. Maybe he did do it initially for money, a job, but he knew the risks, and lived to come home. If he hadn’t, my family would have been sad, but would have affirmed his life and his choices.
My son in law from Puerto Rico, like many young PR’s, joined right out of high school, to get an education, and yes, some salary, and he is now a 20 year career Army Warrant Officer (I think III) serving a second tour in Korea. He would gladly go to Iraq if that is where he is was needed and sent. He is patriotic, and a great American addition to the military traditions of my family.
My daughter, his wife, descends from at least 2 Revolutionary War Militia, and 3 Civil War veterans, 2 on one side and 1 on the other side of that bloody conflict, the fact of the matter is, they fought to maintain a way of life in a new land, and thank God they did, as it put us on the path to being a very rich nation, one founded on strong principles of individual freedoms and choices-……..Yes, you can be a man without the service, but it sure helps speed up the process, and yes, we owe them a lot then they come home, those who do. We owe them our freedom, pray God for their continued bravery, and need to do all we can to support them, not undermine what they are doing or why they are there. They are there because they support a strong President……War is Hell, and it takes a strong leader to send us into one. Bush I wanted to stay and finish Saddam in Desert Storm, but the politicians made him make Swartzkoff come home too quickly, so here we are. We can abandon the Mid East to the pirates, the likes of what’s running Iran. ……… it’s about power, and using it to preserve Democracy and a way of life for everyone in the world to have a shot as good as what we have in the rich nation! Happy 4Th! Suzi
July 6, 2008 at 6:34 am
onlymoments
The question was when someone enlists does that mean they cannot be considered heroes because they did it for the money, knowing they could lose life or limb? Is it bullshit that we consider these men. as shown in the picture at the top of the blog. heroes or does the fact of being well-paid diminish or eliminate the honor being of being heroic?
July 6, 2008 at 4:36 pm
SuziQ
OK, I’ll make it shorter and more on point! It’s my belief that heroes become heroes because of who they are, no matter where they are or what put them there. When ordinary men and women do extraordinary things, it goes beyond money or WHY they are in a particular place, and in most cases, this can’t be predicted. Therefore, heroes in war are like heroes on the streets. It has nothing to do with money. It has to do with individual courage, bravery, outrage at a wrong. Some in military service are heroes and brave, and some are cowards. We know through our history books about the cowards AND the heroes, and I suspect that they are in equal proportion to heroes and cowards that are just plain folks walking among us. To take a stand in the face of danger or threat may be as simple as defending someone from a bully, so the “bully” is the coward hiding behind his words or a weapon, and the “hero” is the man or woman who speaks up in the face of possible harm to self. So the premise of “who can or can’t be considered a hero” has nothing to do with being drafted or volunteered for the military. ANYONE who does the right thing for a principle is a hero. Nobody risks their life and limb for money, not when the chips are down. They do it because of their inner strength and conviction, without even thinking about it in many cases, and not even expecting it to be recognized. Am I being clear now! Heroes and cowards are all around us, and luckily for us, some of them are in the military, which tends to make the two types more visible. The military weeds out many of the cowards in basic training, which, something like firefighter and rescue training, focuses on teamwork and sharing the work load. Best! Suzi
July 6, 2008 at 5:01 pm
onlymoments
You said: It’s my belief that heroes become heroes because of who they are, no matter where they are or what put them there. When ordinary men and women do extraordinary things, it goes beyond money or WHY they are in a particular place, and in most cases, this can’t be predicted. Therefore, heroes in war are like heroes on the streets. It has nothing to do with money. It has to do with individual courage, bravery, outrage at a wrong.
And I agree wholeheartedly.
July 9, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Bert
Wow – I can’t even believe you’re having this conversation with “Mr. G”
As far as I’m concerned, his “opinion” does not merit a response.